Interview with Rob Schreiber
Note: Edited for clarity.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so this is an audio interview. Rob, can you state your name and your role at Project RETURN?
ROB: Rob Schreiber, I'm the board president, a former client, the facilitator of the alumni group, and a circlekeeper.
INTERVIEWER: Excellent. You have a long list of titles there, Rob! So, how did you learn about Project RETURN?
ROB: I learned about it when I was in jail. (laughs) The day I was released, I came here on a bus and I met Mary Steppe. Wendel (our Executive Director) was not the director or the associate director... he was a staff person, at the time. I volunteered while I was searching for a job. I helped write people's resumes and did some research on jobs. They used to do it differently... they used to have a listing posted, and help the people contact them. They stopped posting it because other people took the list to other organizations. While I was doing that, when I didn't have an interview or a meeting with the parole officer, I would be here. From 8 in the morning to 2:35 every day. I couldn't use the internet at home, but I got permission to use it at Project RETURN. I couldn't sign in - someone on staff had to sign me in, and sign me out so the PO knew it was monitored. You couldn't apply for a job or even look for one, unless you were online! (laughs) So that was... the very beginning.
INTERVIEWER: When you first got out, what resources did you use from Project RETURN? What did you need immediately, and what did you get later?
ROB: Immediately, I looked for jobs. While using the computer after they talked to the PO, the people here, they became an extended family. They're very supportive. If you had something coming up with a PO, or anything... I had to move three times, and at that time, Wendel helped me... Each time, the place I was moving to was approved, but the PO said, "No, you can't live here." - I said, "But you told me I could!" - "Well, you have to move." That happened three times in three months.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. That sounds tough.
ROB: It was very helpful. They helped me get to the next place I found. Then, people didn't want to rent to you. Now, there's relationships in place, and those issues are on the forefront of our efforts and programs. Not just here at Project RETURN, but at partnering organizations as well.
INTERVIEWER: When you found Project RETURN, did they have other resources besides jobs? Did they have the clothing closet?
ROB: They had some clothes initially, but not like they do now. They had a lot of working relationships with other organizations, and they could refer people to organizations that would help them - provide clothes or whatever.
INTERVIEWER: What kind of jobs did you get through Project RETURN?
ROB: I had a job with a credit card processing company, and that lasted about a year and a half. Then, the PO basically said I couldn't do that anymore, even though they approved it. Then I had to... I just kept looking. You know? They don't always want to hire people in their fifties, and they deny that, but... I was doing between 50 and 100 job applications a week. Then, the rest of the time, I was helping other people rewrite resumes. I had a file of formats that helped them write all kinds of documents.
I just did a lot of volunteering. I had interviews, but didn't get hired. Then, when I got off paper, I created my own job. It was a mystery shopping and merchandising company. It required a lot of writing, and driving around. Wouldn't get rich, by any means, but I was paying my bills.
INTERVIEWER: That's the important thing.
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So, what inspired you to volunteer your time at Project RETURN?
ROB: I didn't want to stay home and do nothing, I wanted to be productive! You do so much for yourself every day, you have got to do things for other people. I was asked to be on the board a few times and I said no, (laughs) and then finally I said yes. I don't even know how long I've been on it - over ten years!
INTERVIEWER: That's a long time!
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So, what made you choose to be on the board?
ROB: I wasn't on paper anymore. That was the biggest part. Also, the alumni group, which is part of the Circles of Support program now... I think it has existed for over 17 years. It's the same concept as Circles, but it wasn't called that. Then, the idea of Circles became popular, and there was more formal training... I don't know how many there are now, 13? With more in the works! The alumni group still goes forward. It works because there are people who have been in our group, who have been gone for two years because something happened, and then they come back! Because they know there's a place they can talk openly, and share, and not be judged. That's real important.
INTERVIEWER: So how does that feel, to be able to provide that space for people?
ROB: Well, I'm there every week! (laughs) Unless I'm in the hospital. Which I have been, a few times. I talk to people that are in our circle... not just at the meeting, but afterwards. If someone is having an issue, or having a problem or needs something... you can't just look out for yourself, you have to look out for other people around you.
INTERVIEWER: I agree.
ROB: Some people are more willing to share... but you don't have to share. You only need to do that when you're comfortable. If you're not comfortable sharing, then you don't have to share. But you're still there and you're getting something out of it. Then, I also help with other people's organizations as much as I can. Like Table of the Saints... one of the people who comes to the alumni group is Troy Hawkins, and he does a lot of extra stuff. I help him sometimes. But, I'm still working, so....
INTERVIEWER: Sounds like you have a really full plate!
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So, your work as a board member at Project RETURN, what does that look like? What responsibilities do you have?
ROB: Well, I'm currently the board president. Last year, we did a retreat for the board... and we're going to do another one this coming year to get us on the path. It had discussions about what we wanted from each board member. We all agreed that each board member should be on at least one committee. So, they're not just coming to a meeting once a month, they're part of a committee that would meet outside of that. We lost some key board members this past year, and we worked to get more in 2024... and then people had personal issues and had to back off. A couple of people had medical issues... so I found myself volunteering to do a lot of stuff that other people might have done in the past. We have a housing committee, which has three sub committees... we also have the personnel committee, we have Celebrate, the Golf Outing...
INTERVIEWER: For those who don't know, Celebrate the RETURN and the Golf outing are the two big events that Project RETURN hosts. Can you say more about that?
ROB: Well, it's funny because the Golf outing has been happening for 15 years now. When I first met Wendel's wife, she said, "Oh, yeah, he likes to golf." I said, "I like to play golf!" So, I started playing golf with Wendel and with my men in the Alumni group, and we started doing a tournament. I haven't gotten to play with anyone since... COVID really messed things up. It's been an ongoing effort, and most of it has been resting on Wendel, so hopefully we can change that and get a couple of people to help us with it. It does raise some money, and it helps people have fun. Supporters and staff have fun for a day. It's not a contest to see if you can be 5 under par - we just want people to have fun. That's the whole purpose. There's challenges because some people are wanting to be more... professional? It's a golf outing, you know. We actually had to move.
Celebrate the RETURN, the first time I went to it, it was the 25th anniversary. I helped Joyce e solicit things for the silent auction, and I've been a part of it ever since. that was almost 20 years ago. I contribute... I mean, I've been on the committee and I always look for things to use for the silent auction. I'll buy things while they are on sale and just donate it. When I do stuff like that, it has a multiplier effect because if it is on sale for ten dollars, and it's retail price was eighty dollars, whatever you get over ten dollars helps the cause. So instead of donating ten dollars, I'm creating an opportunity to raise 80 dollars.
INTERVIEWER: That's a good way of putting it, I like that.
ROB: I try to encourage people to do the same, especially during the holiday season, because we don't have Celebrate until October. Around the holidays, everything is on sale. You might get a gift that you don't want or need, or you might already have, you know, and re-gifting to help somebody isn't necessarily a bad thing.
INTERVIEWER: I hear you, I hear you.
ROB: And I know what it's like to be without.
INTERVIEWER: That is a motivating aspect, absolutely. I understand.
So, when it comes to Project RETURN, how has your perspective on non-profit work shifted?
ROB: It hasn't! I was in not-for-profit work for 20 years before I moved to Wisconsin and got in trouble. I was in food banking when it started in the early 80s, and I was in St Louis at the time. I was a director at that organization. Then I moved to New Orleans, and I was there for six and a half years. I moved from there to Indianapolis, and I was there for about six and a half years, seven years. I came home when my mom got sick. Everything went downhill after I came home. (laughs) That's when I got in trouble. I've always believed in charity, and a lot of organizations are more results-oriented than service-oriented, which means they are not providing the service they claim because they're just looking for the results. I'm being really biased when I say that - you can't provide services to people if they only fit into this... square. That square says, I have a hundred percent or a 98 percent success rate. If you open it to everyone who needs it, you aren't going to have that, because you're offering help to everybody. Some people won't have success. The ones that you know will be successful, they don't need your help. They'll make it on their own. The ones that fail or slide back, and we're dealing with re-entry in Wisconsin... they have so many hurdles and traps to deal with that were created by society... it's almost set up for them to fail. Well, Project RETURN is trying to get rid of that by taking action.
EXPO came in the middle of that - in 2013, I wrote an Americorps proposal. Pastor Joe went with me to Madison to present it. They basically told us that if you go forward with it, you can't be a part of it because you're a convicted felon. A federal program won't work. It blew me away that they liked the program, but they didn't like the people involved. That was a rule. I don't know if it has changed since then... I hope it has. That proposal was state-wide, and when we were denied, David Liners at WISDOM got a grant from someone else and we started EXPO.
INTERVIEWER: EXPO is your radio show, right?
ROB: EXPO is Ex-Incarcerated People Organizing. That came first, then Mark Rice, who was part of EXPO in Milwaukee, approached me and they asked me if I would write a proposal to do a radio show so we could get an opportunity to share people's stories and talk about solutions. And I did! That was in October, and they contacted me in early March, and then we had a training at the radio station to learn how to run the equipment, and the rules and such. That was two weekends - two Saturdays - and I went to both of those. Then, I got the show scheduled. It's been almost nine years in March.
INTERVIEWER: That's amazing! Congratulations!
ROB: The biggest challenge with that, I think... I love talking to people, doing 1-on-1 like we're having a conversation... you learn a lot! That's all I do on the radio. I have a little information ahead of time, and we have a conversation... with the individual or individuals. Some have come back, such as Dr. Ed de St. Aubin from Marquette, he started an intern program at Project RETURN, and then he expanded it! He used to have two or three, now he has twenty-something interns at multiple locations. It originated here! That was kind of nice. He will come on and bring interns with him, and you get what you're saying, something impacts you differently.
Well, they have a conversation and when you are talking to them... how do you look at things now compared to when you started? They really have an eye opening experiences volunteering as an intern in a program like Project RETURN, or WISDOM, or Table of the Saints - that's actually in the community and trying to make it better and fairer for everybody. it completely changes their viewpoint, their direction... a lot of people end up shifting towards something that gives back more.
You impact a lot of people you don't even know. It doesn't matter to me, I am just trying to be as helpful as possible. I'm not trying to be in the spotlight.
INTERVIEWER: I think people appreciate that. You do a lot of good work for the community, Rob.
Rob: Eh. (laughs) I'm the behind-the-scenes person!
INTERVIEWER: I noticed for your radio show that you recently had your 300th episode! That's a big deal!
ROB: That was a couple weeks back. We had a special broadcast for the 100th episode, but we haven't since then. I was working with the manager at the station, we were hoping to do a show specifically on housing for like an hour, and actually have three or four guests who work with housing or are providing it. We're not at that point yet, but once some stuff is confirmed, we will work to set that up. It might not be as early in the year as I was hoping, it will probably be in March or April. So, there is a little bit more lead time. Yeah, I think a lot of people listen online after the actual broadcast. I have friends I talk to through Facebook and Skype on the other side of the world, in China and the Philippines... they listen to it! I say I have a worldwide audience. I know a guy in Germany and he listens to it, plus a young man in Vietnam who has English as his second language, but he teaches it now, and he also was learning German as a third language. He listens to it! I say he gives me a hard time, that's American slang, you know. He didn't understand when I told him that.
INTERVIEWER: It must be cool having friends all over the world!
ROB: It would be nice if they were here. (laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
ROB: But that also part of one of the setbacks, I think, of being on paper and stuff. You gotta be in a safe environment, but how do you make a safe environment? If the person is not 2 miles away, but 6000 miles away, you're actually in a safe environment. You can open up more to someone who's far away than you can if they are right across the table or down the street. You might even share more. You aren't putting yourself at risk, you're not putting them at risk, you don't have to pretend or hide... the odds of actually meeting them is pretty slim. In person, I mean. You can be real straightforward with them.
In our society, here in the United States, you can be straightforward and honest, but the people are being judgemental, because that is what society has told them to do. Somehow, they decided they would listen to that part and be judgmental, which is not very fair.
INTERVIEWER: Oh. I'm sure you have faced a lot of stigma.
ROB: Yeah. Always! All my life! I've always faced that, but that's alright. I don't let it set me back. You know I do mystery shopping and customer service evaluation and merchandising and stuff to keep my head above water. No one knows what I'm doing. I've been doing it for so long... if I'm in a store or restaurant, they don't have a clue. I'm just a person in the restaurant. You don't draw attention to yourself when you're doing something - you just try to blend in. I know how to blend in. I think it's funny because I get to write reviews on their service and communication, (laughs) and some of them have zero communication skills, so... that's kind of funny, in a way.
INTERVIEWER: I think it's interesting that even in this role, you are serving people and finding the real experience that people have in these businesses and organizations... This is what needs to change, this is what needs to improve...
ROB: It's different! I've done high-end restaurants and hotels and grocery stores and... gas stations and hardware stores - I mean, pretty much every business in the metropolitan area, I've had something to do with it at some point or another. I watched stores close, I watched stuff change, and you can tell that people's attitudes from one place to another is completely different.
INTERVIEWER: Because they're being informed by their biases?
ROB: No, just because of the policies within the organization. Some organizations, retail especially, are top down, but the rules are not. The rules aren't there because it makes sense in the community, it's in place because this person on top is waiting for his shower of bonuses. It has nothing to do with providing service or helping anybody. More people will try to scam you when they think you are playing dumb - I play dumb when I go into places and they try to scam me. I put it all down in writing in my report, and say, "Yeah, I wouldn't trust this person or location." I'm not going to say if it's a restaurant or whatever, but I put it in there. I've seen places close... maybe because of what I wrote, maybe it contributed to it. But people don't understand that when you're at a dealership, or a gas station... all these companies like Kmart (which is gone), Sears (which is gone), JCPenny - well, they're still here, but not on a very big scale. Whole Foods - they have policies they are supposed to follow. Macy's! They have policies they are supposed to follow! So they pay organizations to check on them, to make sure they are actually following the regulations. Because that is part of the franchise agreement! Their agreement with their home office. My brother used to give me a hard time, saying "When are you getting someone fired?" I said, "I'm not firing anybody." If they get fired, it's because of their lack of concern with their rules and guidelines, and they are not in compliance with the franchise. I didn't have anything do to with it. I reported it, but... There are a lot of people who want to scam people. Like... when they have the opportunity to point that out, I do.
INTERVIEWER: So how has your life changed between interacting with Project RETURN for the first time and now?
ROB: Uh, I'm not worried about money. I make enough to keep my head above water. I'm not looking for a hand out. This is just me - I try to be there for friends that I have made, through the alumni group, through the organizations here at Project RETURN, board members, staff... I have more respect from a lot of people than I did before. Because, before, they used to look at you and say, "Well, you don't know anything, you committed a crime! You're in jail, you're in prison, you don't know nothing." That's not true. Most of the people who have been incarcerated know a lot more than anyone gives them credit for. They deserve.... especially in our "Christian society", they deserve a second chance. There are a select few people who are offering it to them, when everyone should be! So, I try to talk to people who are going through stuff, and recall what I went through, and say, "Well, this is what I did. I'm not saying it will work for you, but maybe it will. You're not alone. You can talk to somebody".
Like, how do you deal with housing and getting someone to rent to you when you have to tell them why you're still on paper? You gotta explain all that to them, you can't hide it. How do you get hired for a job if you have.... (laughs) You just have to learn how to tell them. You don't have to tell everybody, it's not tattooed to your forehead. You just tell who you need to tell. You don't go around people that were disrespectful in the past, because they probably contributed to you getting in trouble, indirectly. So you try to stay away from that.
INTERVIEWER: And that guidance you give to people, that shows up a lot in your service as a circlekeeper, when you facilitate Circles of Support, right?
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: In that particular vein, as you are giving back to the organization and the individuals through your experiences.... how do your experiences inform your service as a circlekeeper? How does that inform how you show up as a circlekeeper?
Well, I have gone through all kinds of different trainings for all kinds of different things... train the trainer for conflict resolution, and train the trainer for facilitating a meeting... which is a circle. Going through the training to understand things... participating in training for facilitating 1 on 1s, training for being a media contact... I've gone through a lot of it over the years. Granted, some of it might have been 40 years ago, but the same principles are still in place.
I'm guilty of not listening as much as I should. I will admit I will jump in and add my comment... when I should shut up and let people finish. I've learned that part. When you are facilitating a group or circle, nobody does it the same way. The concept is the same, but the way you facilitate a circle and the way I do it will not be the same, it will be different. We could have the same topic, the same format, everything - but it's still going to be different. Because of the way I look at it and the way I've done it and the way I've felt that I've offered assistance is based on my personal experience, it's not based on your personal experience. It's a process, to get other people to understand that, too. You share when you're comfortable! You don't have to share, you can just observe and listen, and you are welcome to keep coming. You being there is a contribution, because you are hearing what people are saying and you're part of the audience, but you don't have to say anything until you're comfortable. There's no forcing anything. I mean, it's all volunteer-based, the whole thing. So we have people come to the circle - alumni - and just this last week, someone came back who had been gone for two years. He'd had all this rough stuff in his life, and he got off track, but now he's back on track and he shared. And he came back. He came back! Okay, so, what does that tell you, right there? Something's working because this guy came back. But then, you also have people who try to question things that are being discussed, or try to turn or twist things, and it's like, well, that's not really the topic. You know?
We've tried to put more structure in, to actually have topics to discuss and share. Some of them came up during the meeting - they weren't planned - they kind of came up. Then we said, well, let's just go with that. That's worked to a degree. When I first started, when Mary Steppe was still around, and Pastor Joe facilitated it, sometimes it was me and Pastor Joe. That was it. Other days, we had 18 to 20 people there. Then COVID came, and we were still trying to do it, but we weren't doing it as part of the Circles, it was still the alumni group. We had a phone bank where everybody called in to one number and we took turns, whoever called in. It was hard to see who called in because you could only tell they were there by listening to them. Then, we switched to Zoom in the midst of all that, and Zoom worked. But now, everybody kind of relies on Zoom - not everyone, but some people. Zoom is a great tool and it's very helpful, but you don't have the personal contact time.
INTERVIEWER: It's different when they're not -
ROB: Right. If they are in the room, you get more out of it. It's not just the time that you actually have in your meeting - whatever the meeting is, if it's a Circle or anything, it's not just the time in the meeting, it's the before and after. When you are using Zoom, that's gone, because you don't have the before, you don't the after. You are calling in on a computer or a phone... you are on the screen with other people but you aren't in the room. You understand what I'm trying to say. You've heard me say this - the internet and computers are great when they work. They are tools, but when people look at them to provide answers to every question that was never asked, that's not going to happen. You can use it as a tool, and that's great, but when it doesn't work and you're reliant on it, you've just sunk your own ship.
INTERVIEWER: Circling back to the Circles themselves, what do you think is the most beneficial thing about the Circles?
ROB: Well, for the alumni group, it's having a safe environment. A place where you can say something and you know the people there - you might not know initially - might have been in the same situation, or similar situations. If they haven't, they are working with people who have been. It's a safe environment - like, you can't - we had a conversation recently about being labelled. You can't have that conversation with your best friend from grade school or high school or your brother. Some of them, maybe, but most of them, you can't. You can only have it with people who have been in a similar situation where it's going to have any meaning. That kind of thing. Our circles and Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous - they all have similarities. The people are all there to support each other. You get the most support from someone who has been in a similar situation as yourself.
INTERVIEWER: Well, thank you for your time, Rob! Is there anything else you would like to add?
ROB: No, but if you have to ask me any questions you are welcome to at any time and I will answer them.
INTERVIEWER: Well, thank you very much for your time! We're gonna wrap up!
ROB: Rob Schreiber, I'm the board president, a former client, the facilitator of the alumni group, and a circlekeeper.
INTERVIEWER: Excellent. You have a long list of titles there, Rob! So, how did you learn about Project RETURN?
ROB: I learned about it when I was in jail. (laughs) The day I was released, I came here on a bus and I met Mary Steppe. Wendel (our Executive Director) was not the director or the associate director... he was a staff person, at the time. I volunteered while I was searching for a job. I helped write people's resumes and did some research on jobs. They used to do it differently... they used to have a listing posted, and help the people contact them. They stopped posting it because other people took the list to other organizations. While I was doing that, when I didn't have an interview or a meeting with the parole officer, I would be here. From 8 in the morning to 2:35 every day. I couldn't use the internet at home, but I got permission to use it at Project RETURN. I couldn't sign in - someone on staff had to sign me in, and sign me out so the PO knew it was monitored. You couldn't apply for a job or even look for one, unless you were online! (laughs) So that was... the very beginning.
INTERVIEWER: When you first got out, what resources did you use from Project RETURN? What did you need immediately, and what did you get later?
ROB: Immediately, I looked for jobs. While using the computer after they talked to the PO, the people here, they became an extended family. They're very supportive. If you had something coming up with a PO, or anything... I had to move three times, and at that time, Wendel helped me... Each time, the place I was moving to was approved, but the PO said, "No, you can't live here." - I said, "But you told me I could!" - "Well, you have to move." That happened three times in three months.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. That sounds tough.
ROB: It was very helpful. They helped me get to the next place I found. Then, people didn't want to rent to you. Now, there's relationships in place, and those issues are on the forefront of our efforts and programs. Not just here at Project RETURN, but at partnering organizations as well.
INTERVIEWER: When you found Project RETURN, did they have other resources besides jobs? Did they have the clothing closet?
ROB: They had some clothes initially, but not like they do now. They had a lot of working relationships with other organizations, and they could refer people to organizations that would help them - provide clothes or whatever.
INTERVIEWER: What kind of jobs did you get through Project RETURN?
ROB: I had a job with a credit card processing company, and that lasted about a year and a half. Then, the PO basically said I couldn't do that anymore, even though they approved it. Then I had to... I just kept looking. You know? They don't always want to hire people in their fifties, and they deny that, but... I was doing between 50 and 100 job applications a week. Then, the rest of the time, I was helping other people rewrite resumes. I had a file of formats that helped them write all kinds of documents.
I just did a lot of volunteering. I had interviews, but didn't get hired. Then, when I got off paper, I created my own job. It was a mystery shopping and merchandising company. It required a lot of writing, and driving around. Wouldn't get rich, by any means, but I was paying my bills.
INTERVIEWER: That's the important thing.
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So, what inspired you to volunteer your time at Project RETURN?
ROB: I didn't want to stay home and do nothing, I wanted to be productive! You do so much for yourself every day, you have got to do things for other people. I was asked to be on the board a few times and I said no, (laughs) and then finally I said yes. I don't even know how long I've been on it - over ten years!
INTERVIEWER: That's a long time!
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So, what made you choose to be on the board?
ROB: I wasn't on paper anymore. That was the biggest part. Also, the alumni group, which is part of the Circles of Support program now... I think it has existed for over 17 years. It's the same concept as Circles, but it wasn't called that. Then, the idea of Circles became popular, and there was more formal training... I don't know how many there are now, 13? With more in the works! The alumni group still goes forward. It works because there are people who have been in our group, who have been gone for two years because something happened, and then they come back! Because they know there's a place they can talk openly, and share, and not be judged. That's real important.
INTERVIEWER: So how does that feel, to be able to provide that space for people?
ROB: Well, I'm there every week! (laughs) Unless I'm in the hospital. Which I have been, a few times. I talk to people that are in our circle... not just at the meeting, but afterwards. If someone is having an issue, or having a problem or needs something... you can't just look out for yourself, you have to look out for other people around you.
INTERVIEWER: I agree.
ROB: Some people are more willing to share... but you don't have to share. You only need to do that when you're comfortable. If you're not comfortable sharing, then you don't have to share. But you're still there and you're getting something out of it. Then, I also help with other people's organizations as much as I can. Like Table of the Saints... one of the people who comes to the alumni group is Troy Hawkins, and he does a lot of extra stuff. I help him sometimes. But, I'm still working, so....
INTERVIEWER: Sounds like you have a really full plate!
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So, your work as a board member at Project RETURN, what does that look like? What responsibilities do you have?
ROB: Well, I'm currently the board president. Last year, we did a retreat for the board... and we're going to do another one this coming year to get us on the path. It had discussions about what we wanted from each board member. We all agreed that each board member should be on at least one committee. So, they're not just coming to a meeting once a month, they're part of a committee that would meet outside of that. We lost some key board members this past year, and we worked to get more in 2024... and then people had personal issues and had to back off. A couple of people had medical issues... so I found myself volunteering to do a lot of stuff that other people might have done in the past. We have a housing committee, which has three sub committees... we also have the personnel committee, we have Celebrate, the Golf Outing...
INTERVIEWER: For those who don't know, Celebrate the RETURN and the Golf outing are the two big events that Project RETURN hosts. Can you say more about that?
ROB: Well, it's funny because the Golf outing has been happening for 15 years now. When I first met Wendel's wife, she said, "Oh, yeah, he likes to golf." I said, "I like to play golf!" So, I started playing golf with Wendel and with my men in the Alumni group, and we started doing a tournament. I haven't gotten to play with anyone since... COVID really messed things up. It's been an ongoing effort, and most of it has been resting on Wendel, so hopefully we can change that and get a couple of people to help us with it. It does raise some money, and it helps people have fun. Supporters and staff have fun for a day. It's not a contest to see if you can be 5 under par - we just want people to have fun. That's the whole purpose. There's challenges because some people are wanting to be more... professional? It's a golf outing, you know. We actually had to move.
Celebrate the RETURN, the first time I went to it, it was the 25th anniversary. I helped Joyce e solicit things for the silent auction, and I've been a part of it ever since. that was almost 20 years ago. I contribute... I mean, I've been on the committee and I always look for things to use for the silent auction. I'll buy things while they are on sale and just donate it. When I do stuff like that, it has a multiplier effect because if it is on sale for ten dollars, and it's retail price was eighty dollars, whatever you get over ten dollars helps the cause. So instead of donating ten dollars, I'm creating an opportunity to raise 80 dollars.
INTERVIEWER: That's a good way of putting it, I like that.
ROB: I try to encourage people to do the same, especially during the holiday season, because we don't have Celebrate until October. Around the holidays, everything is on sale. You might get a gift that you don't want or need, or you might already have, you know, and re-gifting to help somebody isn't necessarily a bad thing.
INTERVIEWER: I hear you, I hear you.
ROB: And I know what it's like to be without.
INTERVIEWER: That is a motivating aspect, absolutely. I understand.
So, when it comes to Project RETURN, how has your perspective on non-profit work shifted?
ROB: It hasn't! I was in not-for-profit work for 20 years before I moved to Wisconsin and got in trouble. I was in food banking when it started in the early 80s, and I was in St Louis at the time. I was a director at that organization. Then I moved to New Orleans, and I was there for six and a half years. I moved from there to Indianapolis, and I was there for about six and a half years, seven years. I came home when my mom got sick. Everything went downhill after I came home. (laughs) That's when I got in trouble. I've always believed in charity, and a lot of organizations are more results-oriented than service-oriented, which means they are not providing the service they claim because they're just looking for the results. I'm being really biased when I say that - you can't provide services to people if they only fit into this... square. That square says, I have a hundred percent or a 98 percent success rate. If you open it to everyone who needs it, you aren't going to have that, because you're offering help to everybody. Some people won't have success. The ones that you know will be successful, they don't need your help. They'll make it on their own. The ones that fail or slide back, and we're dealing with re-entry in Wisconsin... they have so many hurdles and traps to deal with that were created by society... it's almost set up for them to fail. Well, Project RETURN is trying to get rid of that by taking action.
EXPO came in the middle of that - in 2013, I wrote an Americorps proposal. Pastor Joe went with me to Madison to present it. They basically told us that if you go forward with it, you can't be a part of it because you're a convicted felon. A federal program won't work. It blew me away that they liked the program, but they didn't like the people involved. That was a rule. I don't know if it has changed since then... I hope it has. That proposal was state-wide, and when we were denied, David Liners at WISDOM got a grant from someone else and we started EXPO.
INTERVIEWER: EXPO is your radio show, right?
ROB: EXPO is Ex-Incarcerated People Organizing. That came first, then Mark Rice, who was part of EXPO in Milwaukee, approached me and they asked me if I would write a proposal to do a radio show so we could get an opportunity to share people's stories and talk about solutions. And I did! That was in October, and they contacted me in early March, and then we had a training at the radio station to learn how to run the equipment, and the rules and such. That was two weekends - two Saturdays - and I went to both of those. Then, I got the show scheduled. It's been almost nine years in March.
INTERVIEWER: That's amazing! Congratulations!
ROB: The biggest challenge with that, I think... I love talking to people, doing 1-on-1 like we're having a conversation... you learn a lot! That's all I do on the radio. I have a little information ahead of time, and we have a conversation... with the individual or individuals. Some have come back, such as Dr. Ed de St. Aubin from Marquette, he started an intern program at Project RETURN, and then he expanded it! He used to have two or three, now he has twenty-something interns at multiple locations. It originated here! That was kind of nice. He will come on and bring interns with him, and you get what you're saying, something impacts you differently.
Well, they have a conversation and when you are talking to them... how do you look at things now compared to when you started? They really have an eye opening experiences volunteering as an intern in a program like Project RETURN, or WISDOM, or Table of the Saints - that's actually in the community and trying to make it better and fairer for everybody. it completely changes their viewpoint, their direction... a lot of people end up shifting towards something that gives back more.
You impact a lot of people you don't even know. It doesn't matter to me, I am just trying to be as helpful as possible. I'm not trying to be in the spotlight.
INTERVIEWER: I think people appreciate that. You do a lot of good work for the community, Rob.
Rob: Eh. (laughs) I'm the behind-the-scenes person!
INTERVIEWER: I noticed for your radio show that you recently had your 300th episode! That's a big deal!
ROB: That was a couple weeks back. We had a special broadcast for the 100th episode, but we haven't since then. I was working with the manager at the station, we were hoping to do a show specifically on housing for like an hour, and actually have three or four guests who work with housing or are providing it. We're not at that point yet, but once some stuff is confirmed, we will work to set that up. It might not be as early in the year as I was hoping, it will probably be in March or April. So, there is a little bit more lead time. Yeah, I think a lot of people listen online after the actual broadcast. I have friends I talk to through Facebook and Skype on the other side of the world, in China and the Philippines... they listen to it! I say I have a worldwide audience. I know a guy in Germany and he listens to it, plus a young man in Vietnam who has English as his second language, but he teaches it now, and he also was learning German as a third language. He listens to it! I say he gives me a hard time, that's American slang, you know. He didn't understand when I told him that.
INTERVIEWER: It must be cool having friends all over the world!
ROB: It would be nice if they were here. (laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
ROB: But that also part of one of the setbacks, I think, of being on paper and stuff. You gotta be in a safe environment, but how do you make a safe environment? If the person is not 2 miles away, but 6000 miles away, you're actually in a safe environment. You can open up more to someone who's far away than you can if they are right across the table or down the street. You might even share more. You aren't putting yourself at risk, you're not putting them at risk, you don't have to pretend or hide... the odds of actually meeting them is pretty slim. In person, I mean. You can be real straightforward with them.
In our society, here in the United States, you can be straightforward and honest, but the people are being judgemental, because that is what society has told them to do. Somehow, they decided they would listen to that part and be judgmental, which is not very fair.
INTERVIEWER: Oh. I'm sure you have faced a lot of stigma.
ROB: Yeah. Always! All my life! I've always faced that, but that's alright. I don't let it set me back. You know I do mystery shopping and customer service evaluation and merchandising and stuff to keep my head above water. No one knows what I'm doing. I've been doing it for so long... if I'm in a store or restaurant, they don't have a clue. I'm just a person in the restaurant. You don't draw attention to yourself when you're doing something - you just try to blend in. I know how to blend in. I think it's funny because I get to write reviews on their service and communication, (laughs) and some of them have zero communication skills, so... that's kind of funny, in a way.
INTERVIEWER: I think it's interesting that even in this role, you are serving people and finding the real experience that people have in these businesses and organizations... This is what needs to change, this is what needs to improve...
ROB: It's different! I've done high-end restaurants and hotels and grocery stores and... gas stations and hardware stores - I mean, pretty much every business in the metropolitan area, I've had something to do with it at some point or another. I watched stores close, I watched stuff change, and you can tell that people's attitudes from one place to another is completely different.
INTERVIEWER: Because they're being informed by their biases?
ROB: No, just because of the policies within the organization. Some organizations, retail especially, are top down, but the rules are not. The rules aren't there because it makes sense in the community, it's in place because this person on top is waiting for his shower of bonuses. It has nothing to do with providing service or helping anybody. More people will try to scam you when they think you are playing dumb - I play dumb when I go into places and they try to scam me. I put it all down in writing in my report, and say, "Yeah, I wouldn't trust this person or location." I'm not going to say if it's a restaurant or whatever, but I put it in there. I've seen places close... maybe because of what I wrote, maybe it contributed to it. But people don't understand that when you're at a dealership, or a gas station... all these companies like Kmart (which is gone), Sears (which is gone), JCPenny - well, they're still here, but not on a very big scale. Whole Foods - they have policies they are supposed to follow. Macy's! They have policies they are supposed to follow! So they pay organizations to check on them, to make sure they are actually following the regulations. Because that is part of the franchise agreement! Their agreement with their home office. My brother used to give me a hard time, saying "When are you getting someone fired?" I said, "I'm not firing anybody." If they get fired, it's because of their lack of concern with their rules and guidelines, and they are not in compliance with the franchise. I didn't have anything do to with it. I reported it, but... There are a lot of people who want to scam people. Like... when they have the opportunity to point that out, I do.
INTERVIEWER: So how has your life changed between interacting with Project RETURN for the first time and now?
ROB: Uh, I'm not worried about money. I make enough to keep my head above water. I'm not looking for a hand out. This is just me - I try to be there for friends that I have made, through the alumni group, through the organizations here at Project RETURN, board members, staff... I have more respect from a lot of people than I did before. Because, before, they used to look at you and say, "Well, you don't know anything, you committed a crime! You're in jail, you're in prison, you don't know nothing." That's not true. Most of the people who have been incarcerated know a lot more than anyone gives them credit for. They deserve.... especially in our "Christian society", they deserve a second chance. There are a select few people who are offering it to them, when everyone should be! So, I try to talk to people who are going through stuff, and recall what I went through, and say, "Well, this is what I did. I'm not saying it will work for you, but maybe it will. You're not alone. You can talk to somebody".
Like, how do you deal with housing and getting someone to rent to you when you have to tell them why you're still on paper? You gotta explain all that to them, you can't hide it. How do you get hired for a job if you have.... (laughs) You just have to learn how to tell them. You don't have to tell everybody, it's not tattooed to your forehead. You just tell who you need to tell. You don't go around people that were disrespectful in the past, because they probably contributed to you getting in trouble, indirectly. So you try to stay away from that.
INTERVIEWER: And that guidance you give to people, that shows up a lot in your service as a circlekeeper, when you facilitate Circles of Support, right?
ROB: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: In that particular vein, as you are giving back to the organization and the individuals through your experiences.... how do your experiences inform your service as a circlekeeper? How does that inform how you show up as a circlekeeper?
Well, I have gone through all kinds of different trainings for all kinds of different things... train the trainer for conflict resolution, and train the trainer for facilitating a meeting... which is a circle. Going through the training to understand things... participating in training for facilitating 1 on 1s, training for being a media contact... I've gone through a lot of it over the years. Granted, some of it might have been 40 years ago, but the same principles are still in place.
I'm guilty of not listening as much as I should. I will admit I will jump in and add my comment... when I should shut up and let people finish. I've learned that part. When you are facilitating a group or circle, nobody does it the same way. The concept is the same, but the way you facilitate a circle and the way I do it will not be the same, it will be different. We could have the same topic, the same format, everything - but it's still going to be different. Because of the way I look at it and the way I've done it and the way I've felt that I've offered assistance is based on my personal experience, it's not based on your personal experience. It's a process, to get other people to understand that, too. You share when you're comfortable! You don't have to share, you can just observe and listen, and you are welcome to keep coming. You being there is a contribution, because you are hearing what people are saying and you're part of the audience, but you don't have to say anything until you're comfortable. There's no forcing anything. I mean, it's all volunteer-based, the whole thing. So we have people come to the circle - alumni - and just this last week, someone came back who had been gone for two years. He'd had all this rough stuff in his life, and he got off track, but now he's back on track and he shared. And he came back. He came back! Okay, so, what does that tell you, right there? Something's working because this guy came back. But then, you also have people who try to question things that are being discussed, or try to turn or twist things, and it's like, well, that's not really the topic. You know?
We've tried to put more structure in, to actually have topics to discuss and share. Some of them came up during the meeting - they weren't planned - they kind of came up. Then we said, well, let's just go with that. That's worked to a degree. When I first started, when Mary Steppe was still around, and Pastor Joe facilitated it, sometimes it was me and Pastor Joe. That was it. Other days, we had 18 to 20 people there. Then COVID came, and we were still trying to do it, but we weren't doing it as part of the Circles, it was still the alumni group. We had a phone bank where everybody called in to one number and we took turns, whoever called in. It was hard to see who called in because you could only tell they were there by listening to them. Then, we switched to Zoom in the midst of all that, and Zoom worked. But now, everybody kind of relies on Zoom - not everyone, but some people. Zoom is a great tool and it's very helpful, but you don't have the personal contact time.
INTERVIEWER: It's different when they're not -
ROB: Right. If they are in the room, you get more out of it. It's not just the time that you actually have in your meeting - whatever the meeting is, if it's a Circle or anything, it's not just the time in the meeting, it's the before and after. When you are using Zoom, that's gone, because you don't have the before, you don't the after. You are calling in on a computer or a phone... you are on the screen with other people but you aren't in the room. You understand what I'm trying to say. You've heard me say this - the internet and computers are great when they work. They are tools, but when people look at them to provide answers to every question that was never asked, that's not going to happen. You can use it as a tool, and that's great, but when it doesn't work and you're reliant on it, you've just sunk your own ship.
INTERVIEWER: Circling back to the Circles themselves, what do you think is the most beneficial thing about the Circles?
ROB: Well, for the alumni group, it's having a safe environment. A place where you can say something and you know the people there - you might not know initially - might have been in the same situation, or similar situations. If they haven't, they are working with people who have been. It's a safe environment - like, you can't - we had a conversation recently about being labelled. You can't have that conversation with your best friend from grade school or high school or your brother. Some of them, maybe, but most of them, you can't. You can only have it with people who have been in a similar situation where it's going to have any meaning. That kind of thing. Our circles and Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous - they all have similarities. The people are all there to support each other. You get the most support from someone who has been in a similar situation as yourself.
INTERVIEWER: Well, thank you for your time, Rob! Is there anything else you would like to add?
ROB: No, but if you have to ask me any questions you are welcome to at any time and I will answer them.
INTERVIEWER: Well, thank you very much for your time! We're gonna wrap up!
Project RETURN |
1004 N. Tenth St., #200
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